Le Sabot Post-Moderne

"The same should come to Williams. If not for the fact that he's a 52 year old man calling himself Tookie, then for the innocent lives he's snuffed out."

If you are going to draw a biblical parallel between Adam and Eve being deserving of the death penalty as a consequence of sin and Williams, or anyone else, then it must follow that God alone can deliver this penalty, not humans.

Sure, if we skip over that whole "Old Testament" thing where God explicitly told people to do exactly that. :)

If I were to accept your reasoning, then God must have been commanding the Israelites to commit a grievous sin with all those death penalties he mandated they carry out.

Oh, sorry I didn't realise we'd received a message from God saying we should kill Williams. My mistake.

Hi there...

I can see you're passionate about this, so I'm going to sidestep the sophomoric aspects of your response and answer you seriously. I regret the direction our interactions have taken lately.

If you go back and look at what I wrote, I was using the example of Adam and Eve to make a universal point about the difference between temporal and eternal forgiveness.

You then came on and did the same -- making a universal statement about how we should apply the case of Adam and Eve.

I pointed out that your interpretation was untenable in light of the fact that AFTER Adam and Eve were judged, God specifically mandated that certain sins be punished with the death penalty. To make my point clear -- it is impossible to imagine that God reserved the death penalty for Himself after Adam and Eve because we have explicit biblical texts in which he commands it of humans.

Since we were speaking on a universal level, it's a bit fatuous for you to then make a sarcastic swipe about personal messages from God about Tookie.

Where Christians of goodwill can differ is in how the death penalty stands today -- to what extent the Old Testament sanctions are a guide for us. We can agree that salvation doesn't absolve one of temporal sanctions without agreeing that death is a proper judgement for murder.

There is usually some common ground for Christians to find, if they're willing to look for it. After all, we have much more in common than we have separate. :)

"Since we were speaking on a universal level, it's a bit fatuous for you to then make a sarcastic swipe about personal messages from God about Tookie."

My reasoning was that God leads His people in the OT, he doesn't say kill all. Further, it was done on His command.

Leaving the OT though, we find Jesus words in the NT which negate 'eye for eye' punishment: .

"Where Christians of goodwill can differ is in how the death penalty stands today -- to what extent the Old Testament sanctions are a guide for us. We can agree that salvation doesn't absolve one of temporal sanctions without agreeing that death is a proper judgement for murder."
- agreed.

I leave it there.

I'm happy to drop it as well, but after a few more thoughts. :)

"My reasoning was that God leads His people in the OT, he doesn't say kill all. Further, it was done on His command."

But it wasn't done with 'personal messages', as you were demanding in Tookie's case. God laid down a moral law that was to be applied by men. And he did say 'kill all' in the case of many different sins. Ex: "Moreover you shall take no ransom for the life of a murderer who is guilty of death, but he shall surely be put to death..." - Numbers 35

"Leaving the OT though, we find Jesus words in the NT which negate 'eye for eye' punishment."

No, they don't. Jesus is speaking against personal revenge taking, not about God-instituted civil authorities. Such an interpretation as yours is completely unsupportable in light of Romans 13:

" 1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4 For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience."

Notable in a Texas execution (if memory serves me) was a female death-row inmate that had demonstrably (through behavior) become a Christian. Real 'reform' - however she was nonetheless put to death for her crimes against mankind. Considering that no hoard of media giants, movie stars or liberal celebrities clamored for clemency in her behalf - their hypocrisy is glaring.

I read in an interview with Williams that he was Muslim and so were his supporters. I happen to live in the county where he was incarcerated (San Quentin is just a few miles away) so I've been following it in my local paper. About 2000 turned out to protest, but the survey in our online paper (and Marin is a very liberal county) showed that 60% supported his execution. I am against capital punishment (for Biblical and justice system reasons) but I don't think he should have been pardoned.

Marla-

It doesn't surprise me that he's actually a Muslim. The idea that the 'Rev.' Jackson would be a syncretist on top of being a race hustler is less than shocking. Bleh. :)

Thanks for the info.

Ron-

I remember that case well. It was hard watching a fellow Christian die, but I supported her execution. Her victims deserved justice. In some ways it was easier though, knowing that she truly was going to a better place than prison. The whole 'the body they may kill/God's truth abideth still' thing. . . :)

Hey, y'all, congratulations on getting through an exchange on one of the most contentious issues out there without more than some ruffled feathers--we *can* find that common ground.

I'm a death-penalty supporter, but I don't have a strong brief against those who think our system is too bent to be just. I think they may be wrong, but I also think their concerns are part of the self-correcting nature of our system, so I think they should make their case.

Discoshaman, I wouldn't reason from the OT jurisprudence as directly as you do--call it my Dispie bent. ;-)

However, Gen 9:6 is pretty darn extensive, and has been understood throughout Christian history to be the "first foundational ordinance of human government."

I continue to understand it so.

Merits of capital punishment aside, I see no special grounds for clemency in this case. It seems clear to me that justice was done, and I only regret the fatuous arguments (again, setting aside the legitimate concerns of some about our justice system in general) advanced by many publicity-hounds in the case.

Best,
PGE

I would be much more moved and convinced about the genuineness of death-row conversions if just once a person trusted Christ and then said,

"You know, according to the Bible, I sacrificed my right to continuing life by destroying the image of God in another. It is right for me to be executed. I await being ushered into the presence of God and fully support the state's duty to take my life."

Actually, that's happened, I think. I can't come up with the example off the top of my head, but I'm pretty sure there was at least one publicized case like that in the last half-century or so.

Cheers,
PGE

Ted Bundy acknowledged Christ before his execution and agreed that his death was warranted for the crimes he committed. He did so in his pre-execution with Jim Dobson. It's on video somewhere.

Um, that's "pre-execution interview..."

Thanks for bringing up Bundy. I think I remember watching a video of that in youth group back then. . .

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