Le Sabot Post-Moderne

Given the relationship I have with some people who are Mormons, I had to admit this was a difficult bit to read them as cults. Yet, intellectually at least, I realize that there is truth to the argument. Besides the simple start of those organizations, the fact that the Mormons don't allow non-Mormons into their Temples always struck me as cultish.

Christianity was supposed to be an open religion, no one should be excluded from a Church, unless they are actively disrupting it.

"One of the great things to come out of the Orange Revolution was a very healthy ecumenism, with leaders of the Kiev Patriarchate, the Protestant and Catholic churches all meeting and praying together."

Thats good to see. Hopefully you can present a united front against encroachment by "poacher religions," if I might be so rude as to use that term.

Greetings,

Could you give me a rundown on what *cults* exist in Ukraine? I'm aware of Mormons and JW. Virtually all Ukrainians I know are at least Orthodox or Uniate Catholic by birth (if not now believers)

Thanks

OEC

FH-

For the record, I think Mormons are for the most part very decent people on a personal level. I'm against their ideas, not the people themselves.

You and I seem to be coming at this from different angles, which is totally okay. You seem to be reading the cult thing more sociologically, while I incline theologically.

When I call them a "cult", it's because they don't belong to the Christian religion. Christianity is trinitarian, and worships an eternal, unchanging God. Mormonism worships a god who is only one among countless ones. He's not in a Trinity, and he's actually just a highly evolved man. Mormons believe that eventually they'll become gods and have their own planets.

They may be nice people, but that's not Christianity.

"Hopefully you can present a united front against encroachment by "poacher religions," if I might be so rude as to use that term."

Reformed churches have been here for 450 years, but I don't think that's a key thing. A lot of the newcomer churches are doing some great things here -- both spiritually and in the humanitarian sphere. I'm much more interested in the quality of new churches than in their historicity.

One Eyed Cat-

Everyone is here. I read that the Scientologists have actually set up a center here. I've personally met people from "The Family", Hare Krishna, various neo-Pagan sects, Satanism, old school Ukrainian Pagans, and the New Age movement. The cultic Word of Faith movement is enormous here -- pay enough money and believe the right faith formula and God will make you rich. Ugh.

Unfortunately, the kingdom of the cults recruits most heavily from nominal Christians. Post-Communism, there's still a LOT of nominalism. . .

"When I call them a "cult", it's because they don't belong to the Christian religion. Christianity is trinitarian, and worships an eternal, unchanging God. Mormonism worships a god who is only one among countless ones. He's not in a Trinity, and he's actually just a highly evolved man. Mormons believe that eventually they'll become gods and have their own planets."

I don't classify a religion as a cult or not simply based on whether I agree with it. Cults are much more specific than that. My criterion:

They either:
1) Are an attempt to suck you dry of money (Scientology) or
2) set up some kind of cult of personality of the leader, aimed at ego-boosting and power for said leader (Raelians)
3) Function as a kind of "hip" or secret society group, where on the "elite", if you will, can belong. (Kabbalah, anyone?)

FH-

I totaly understand. Words often have multiple, equally valid defnitions.

I'm using a Christian/theological one. There is a core of beliefs which Catholics, Orthodox and Protestants all accept as true, beliefs which Christianity has taught since its earliest days. Cults in this sense are faiths which have grown out of Christianity, but which have departed from fundamental doctrines and become separate religions.

The sociological approach is equally valid. Mormonism meets all three of your criteria, incidentally. "Hip" isn't exactly the word that springs to mind, but they definitely have an in-group mindset.

I've always held that Mormons cannot get past the Scripture in Galatians that curses anyone who brings in another gospel--whether that "anyone" is human or an angel. (Maroni?)

FH:

I'd also ad to your criterion the issue of sexuality. I heard someone once say that a cult will hold deviant sexual beleifs and practices. It's there in Mormonism, just like it is in Islam (70 virgins . . . .)

Also, Mormonism does not hold a belief in Hell, right? Clearly contrary to the teachings of Jesus.

Discoshaman and FH,

Thanks for the information and clarification. I am aware of a native faith known as RUNVIRA. I've just started on a website devoted to the study of sectarianism in Ukraine and Russia. My main interest is in the Old Believers during the Tsarist times. I appreciate your input.

OEC

Free Agent, I would put hedonism under the 3rd category, as a form of ego-boosting or self-gratification.

Disco, agreed about common precepts of Christianity. Although the Trinity actually wasn't something all Christians agreed upon early on, there were a number of "Christian" groups which were unitarian. The name of one of them escapes me at the moment.

The LDS are most certainly not a cult, not by any definition.

Perhaps I'm suffering from Stockholm syndrome since I've been living in Mormon country for over five years now, but Mormons are the most Christian people in their daily life than any other I've encountered: incredibly generous, incredibly modest, and almost always polite and helpful. And if you're going to be a fundamentalist, I think the Mormons have found the best way to do so. Almost every practicing Mormon I've met believes very strongly in their core principals, but are not the least bit condemning of others who do not share their beliefs. Compared to how fundamentalists, like my old baptist church, operate in the US, this is quite refreshing.

I don't think the secret Temple ceremonies are much of a sign of cultishness. To me, its only a slightly more extreme version of the exclusiveness found in some churches which deny communion to non-members. On a side note, Mormon congregations would love for you partake in communion if you are a believing Christian of any flavor.

As far as theology goes, I don't see how anyone could call the LDS not Christian. It seems to me that if you believe in God, Jesus, redemtion via the crucifixion, the resurrection, etc., that you are a Christian. It seems to me that any other belief in the structure of God and the universe is quite secondary. To me, I can't see how it would matter if you believe that God is a timeless abstract construct, a former man, or a giant eel. We don't know and if you base these beliefs on the Bible, there isn't enough defnition in the Bible to form a coherent argument one way or another.

And there is a certain weird beauty to how the Mormons view things. God was once a man who died and then essentially evolved to become God. Every human being has a divine spark which will, if they do the right things, allow them to evolve in a similar way. Our current place in life and the universe is not permanent but rather a point in a long progression. And therefore heaven is not just a place to sit around and play harps all day, but rather growth continues after death and there really isn't a point at which it stops.

They do believe in Hell but there is a certain fairness and justice to their beliefs in punishment which other Christian variants don't have. Hell is, for most people, not a permanent place. They do believe there's a few people are irredeemably bad, like Hitler, but most people are given the chance after death to accept the gospel and move on. This is where the slightly weird practice of baptism of the dead comes into play. Believing Christians who were not mormon do get to go to heaven, not the highest heaven where the divine evolution (for lack of a better term) takes place but to a really pleasant place where they have the chance to move on if they choose to do so.

I think its a neat theological system and one of the best in all of Christendom. I'm personally very secular and therefore don't have a dog in this fight. But I do wish people would not dismiss them as a 'cult' or see them as a sinister influence.

And when you see the LDS missionaries in Ukraine, I hope you'll remember that these young men and women have paid their own way (the church only assists in uncommon circumstances) and are taking two years out of their lives to learn a new language and go to a strange country to preach their gospel, leaving family and friends and boy/girlfriends far behind. Many of them have never even been out of the country before. It's quite a sacrifice and even if I disagree with their beliefs, I can't help but admire such dedication to what they believe in.

CS-

No one is arguing that Mormons aren't nice people. Hindus, Muslims and JWs are often quite nice too. That doesn't make them Christians. Mormonism IS a cult, and there's no two ways about it.

They worship a COMPLETELY different God and Christ than Christianity does.

It's a bit like if I were to invite you to play basketball, but then insist we use croquet mallets, a tennis net, and a shuttlecock in place of the usual ball and court. I'm using the same word, but meaning something entirely different by it.

So it is with Mormonism. They have appropriated many Christian words, but mean entirely different things by them.

Thank God for that I can submit my prayer request here, and thank you for your prayer, may God bless you.
Firstly, please pray for that my uncle was suffered from cancer, please pray for that God can heal him, and please pray for that my mother and I can make our every efforts to help him to accept the Jesus Christ, and concern about his family, so that all of his family members may accept the Jesus, too.
Secondly, please pray for that my mother was cheated by Mr. Kwong, Mr Ho, Hin Chai and Anna the year before, she went to a company and worked as an Office assistant, but they cheated my mother, and compelled my mother to give her money out to them(they cheated my mother that the money was used for investment, and the investment was failured), and went away, thank God for that the policemen arrested Mr. Kwong now, but the Mr. Ho , Hin Chai and Anna were still not arrested, please pray for that God can help the policemen in the investigation, and find the evidence to accuse the Mr. Kwong and his helper in the judiciary court, thank God for that the policemen sent us several letters till now about that the investigation is in the progressing, please pray for that God can move their heart, Mr. Kwong , Mr. Ho, Hin Chai and Anna will regret about that they cheated my mother, and they can have pity on my mother , and return the money back to my mother , thank you.
Thirdly, please pray for that my brother was hurt his leg in the working place, please pray for that my brother can be rehabilitated soon, and he can be rehabilitated completely, and please pray for that he can be maintained in his job, please pray for that God can cure his leg, and protect his job, and give him good health, his boss will provide the sick leave fees for him till he totally restored his health, thank you.
Fourthly, (1) Please pray for that I can improve my working efficiency, and please pray for and thank God for that God can protect my family members and I will not to be hurt by my workmates and supervisors in order that I can have psychological health during working and I will have a stable job after my contract due, and pray for and thank God for that I will not be suffered in the marital problems in my job, please pray for that I can further my contract, please pray for that God can help me to make my every effort in keeping my job, please pray for that God can protect my job - which is as a Contract Office Support Assistant, I need this job very much, please pray for that God can have mercy upon me, and help me to keep the job after the end of my contract and further my contract for one more year, and please pray for and thank God for that I can have talent to do a job if I will not further the contract later, because I want to earn living for my family members. (2)Please pray for that I can restore my psychological health, because I am always blame myself about the sins I committed before, I am afraid that God will punish me about the sins I committed before, please pray for that I can have biblical mind to know will God punish me one day or not, so that I can live out good witnesses and have peace to face the punishment from God one day, and please pray for that God can forgive me. (3)Please pray for and thank God for that I will not be suffered in the marital problems, so that I can seek the kingdom and the righteousness of God first, and have a spiritual growth up, and I will not regret about the decision I made in this marriage this life, that I will only choose the Christian girlfriend that was arranged by God, please pray for that if God had not prepare a Christian girlfriend for me, help me to keep alone whole life, so that I will not be hurt again in order that I can restore my psychological health and have a spiritual growth up. (4)Please pray for that the son of my brother will not hurt himself, my brother and my sister will not be suffered in the marital problems , my sister can have good psychological health, and we can maintain a good relationship, we will not be hurt by the husband of my sister and the wife of my brother, so that my mother and I can help my sister and my brother to accept the Jesus Christ. (5)Please pray for that I can pray and study bible from the net, so that my mother and I can firmly believe in the bible ,and we can have assurance of the salvation. And please pray for that we will not suffer a loss in the Lord's Judgement Day, thank God for that I can keep on use mind or mouth to pray in the office , please pray for that I can not only keep on use mouth to pray in the office but also in the whole life time, God can keep my health when I pray too vigorous, and please pray for that God can help me to fasting twice a week or more during lunch hour, please pray for that my stomach can maintain health if I fast for too long times, and I can pray at mid-night , and I will go to the church where my mother go to in the will of God, please pray for that I can maintain a good psychological and body health, and can keep on pray with heart this life, and please pray for that I will not suffer from disease ( such as heart disease) if I pray too vigorous. (6)Please pray for that my family members and I can have place to live and food to eat, please pray for that we can apply for compassionate rehousing in God's will, may God have mercy upon my family members. (7)Please pray for that my mother and brother can maintain in their jobs, they can restore their health, and please pray for that God can keep the health of my breast, so that my family members and I can have good healthes. (8)Please pray for that my brother will not go on drinking the wine and gambling. (9)Please pray for that God can purified me, and please pray for that I will not be hurt by my colleagues, classmates and friends include Christian colleagues, so that they can be helpful for me to live out a good witness before my family members, my grandmother, my father, my sister, my brother and my relatives can all accept the Jesus Christ, and my mother and I can have a spiritual growth up and can strenghthen our faith.
And I am sorry for any inconvinience I made to submit my prayer request here.

Thank God for that I can submit my prayer request here, and thank you for your prayer, may God bless you.
Firstly, please pray for that my uncle was suffered from cancer, please pray for that God can heal him, and please pray for that my mother and I can make our every efforts to help him to accept the Jesus Christ, and concern about his family, so that all of his family members may accept the Jesus, too.
Secondly, please pray for that my mother was cheated by Mr. Kwong, Mr Ho, Hin Chai and Anna the year before, she went to a company and worked as an Office assistant, but they cheated my mother, and compelled my mother to give her money out to them(they cheated my mother that the money was used for investment, and the investment was failured), and went away, thank God for that the policemen arrested Mr. Kwong now, but the Mr. Ho , Hin Chai and Anna were still not arrested, please pray for that God can help the policemen in the investigation, and find the evidence to accuse the Mr. Kwong and his helper in the judiciary court, thank God for that the policemen sent us several letters till now about that the investigation is in the progressing, please pray for that God can move their heart, Mr. Kwong , Mr. Ho, Hin Chai and Anna will regret about that they cheated my mother, and they can have pity on my mother , and return the money back to my mother , thank you.
Thirdly, please pray for that my brother was hurt his leg in the working place, please pray for that my brother can be rehabilitated soon, and he can be rehabilitated completely, and please pray for that he can be maintained in his job, please pray for that God can cure his leg, and protect his job, and give him good health, his boss will provide the sick leave fees for him till he totally restored his health, thank you.
Fourthly, (1) Please pray for that I can improve my working efficiency, and please pray for and thank God for that God can protect my family members and I will not to be hurt by my workmates and supervisors in order that I can have psychological health during working and I will have a stable job after my contract due, and pray for and thank God for that I will not be suffered in the marital problems in my job, please pray for that I can further my contract, please pray for that God can help me to make my every effort in keeping my job, please pray for that God can protect my job - which is as a Contract Office Support Assistant, I need this job very much, please pray for that God can have mercy upon me, and help me to keep the job after the end of my contract and further my contract for one more year, and please pray for and thank God for that I can have talent to do a job if I will not further the contract later, because I want to earn living for my family members. (2)Please pray for that I can restore my psychological health, because I am always blame myself about the sins I committed before, I am afraid that God will punish me about the sins I committed before, please pray for that I can have biblical mind to know will God punish me one day or not, so that I can live out good witnesses and have peace to face the punishment from God one day, and please pray for that God can forgive me. (3)Please pray for and thank God for that I will not be suffered in the marital problems, so that I can seek the kingdom and the righteousness of God first, and have a spiritual growth up, and I will not regret about the decision I made in this marriage this life, that I will only choose the Christian girlfriend that was arranged by God, please pray for that if God had not prepare a Christian girlfriend for me, help me to keep alone whole life, so that I will not be hurt again in order that I can restore my psychological health and have a spiritual growth up. (4)Please pray for that the son of my brother will not hurt himself, my brother and my sister will not be suffered in the marital problems , my sister can have good psychological health, and we can maintain a good relationship, we will not be hurt by the husband of my sister and the wife of my brother, so that my mother and I can help my sister and my brother to accept the Jesus Christ. (5)Please pray for that I can pray and study bible from the net, so that my mother and I can firmly believe in the bible ,and we can have assurance of the salvation. And please pray for that we will not suffer a loss in the Lord's Judgement Day, thank God for that I can keep on use mind or mouth to pray in the office , please pray for that I can not only keep on use mouth to pray in the office but also in the whole life time, God can keep my health when I pray too vigorous, and please pray for that God can help me to fasting twice a week or more during lunch hour, please pray for that my stomach can maintain health if I fast for too long times, and I can pray at mid-night , and I will go to the church where my mother go to in the will of God, please pray for that I can maintain a good psychological and body health, and can keep on pray with heart this life, and please pray for that I will not suffer from disease ( such as heart disease) if I pray too vigorous. (6)Please pray for that my family members and I can have place to live and food to eat, please pray for that we can apply for compassionate rehousing in God's will, may God have mercy upon my family members. (7)Please pray for that my mother and brother can maintain in their jobs, they can restore their health, and please pray for that God can keep the health of my breast, so that my family members and I can have good healthes. (8)Please pray for that my brother will not go on drinking the wine and gambling. (9)Please pray for that God can purified me, and please pray for that I will not be hurt by my colleagues, classmates and friends include Christian colleagues, so that they can be helpful for me to live out a good witness before my family members, my grandmother, my father, my sister, my brother and my relatives can all accept the Jesus Christ, and my mother and I can have a spiritual growth up and can strenghthen our faith.
And I am sorry for any inconvinience I made to submit my prayer request here.