Le Sabot Post-Moderne

Dear Discoshaman,

Out of curiousity, are you Orthodox? I converted to Orthodoxy about 17 years ago, and have noticed that a fair number of converts come from a Pentecostal/Charismatic background.

Tony

Hi Tony!

No, I'm a conservative Presbyterian. . . My experience is that when someone comes out of some of the more out-there Charismatic or Pentecostal sects, he often wants something historical and sane. I think that's why the more liturgical churches -- Presby, Anglican, Catholic, Orthodox, etc., end up receiving a lot of ex-Charismatics into their flocks. Of course, not all Charismatic churches are wacky. Just a fair number of them. :)

BTW, out of curiousity may I ask which Patriarchate you belong to?

Actually, I believe that he is Evangelical in philosophy. As for the anti-Intellectualism of certain Christian sects, that does crop up every now and then. Its always a problem when it does, but fortunately it never lasts as the dominant paradigm of Christian thought.

I am from a charismatic/pentecostal church, and my church is not anti-Intellectualism, and does not believe in a soul, body, and a spirit, but just a body and a soul. You can't really make any overall statements. Some Charismatic's are probably heretics, but so are some reformed people. And Catholics..... I think their are few who are not heritics:-)

I am quite interested in this discussion. While I was in L'Abri, this was the only thing I disagreed with my tutor on. I was a trichotomist and he a dichotomist. He didn't seem to argue too hard, though, apparently feeling it was not that inegral to my life.

I never viewed this as being a hinderance to intellectual pursuits, though. Perhaps I just didn't put it together. I am certainly intellectual and recieved flak from any church I attended (Charismatic, Baptist, Ev. Free). If this belief is what stems the fear of questions and thinking, then I need to reconsider my views.

Any more information would be appreciated. I realize and appreciate that you are busy, but feel free to email me if you get the chance.

Ben-

"Some Charismatic's are probably heretics, but so are some reformed people."

I mentioned a very specific heresy that has been resurrected in Charismatic/Pentecostal circles. Rather than address it, you changed the subject by basically saying, "there are heretics all over the place." I agree, there are many weaknesses in the modern church. That doesn't prevent us from discussing them in specifics. Today we're discussing this one.

"I think their are few who are not heritics:-)"

This simply isn't true. Most of the Christians I know aren't heretics at all. There can be diversity of opinion without us denouncing each other as heretics. But there are some things that are simply outside of orthodox Christianity. Gnosticism is one of these.

"I am from a charismatic/pentecostal church, and my church is not anti-Intellectualism, and does not believe in a soul, body, and a spirit, but just a body and a soul. You can't really make any overall statements."

Reread my post when you can please. Whenever I critique something in the Christian world, I try to be careful to focus my criticism, rather than smearing an entire group.

So, for example, I said that anti-intellectualism is endemic rather than pandemic. I'm glad your church is sound. Praise God. :-) But the millions of people who went through Brownsville or Toronto and thought that angels were literally dropping feathers into the room and God was coating their arms with gold dust are also in the Pentecostal/Charismatic family. And they aren't small in number. The well-meaning but foolish section of Charismatic/Pentecostals who think doctrine is devilish and just "love Jesus" is also hardly a tiny contingent. Nor is the section that thinks that philosophy, secular literature and the like are "vain and deceitful philosophies of men."

To an extent, I can make overall statements, because 20 years in multiple states in many different churches gave me quite a bit of perspective. I've been on stage with Benny Hinn, spent three days with the man who magically turns false teeth to gold, sat under the preaching of Lester Sumrall and Dad Hagin, etc. There's a strain of anti-intellectualism a mile wide.

That said, I was careful to NOT make a general statement about all Charismatics. There are a lot of solid, intelligent, doctrinally-aware Christians among them. Which is why I said: "Is it this way in all Charismatic and Pentecostal churches? No."

Anyway, your response was very friendly, and I hope you read my in the same vein. I appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts.

Your pal,
Disco

Mr. Green!

Good to see you, man. . .

I'm still mulling over this topic, so I could be wrong in saying this, but I don't think there's anything inherently anti-intellectual in a trichotomous view. If someone believed that we're composed of three parts, but that the Fall afflicted them each with sinfulness, I don't think it would have the same negative impact.

The problem is that many Charismatics and Pentecostals, as in so many things, take a grotesquely literalist view of the phrase "spiritually dead." They literally believe that unbelievers have no spirit, it is dead. And so when a person is saved, depending on which variant of this belief you buy into, God either brings the dead spirit alive or else creates one whole cloth.

So this new spirit is perfect and untainted by the effects of the Fall, unlike the body or soul. And that's where the problem lies -- why trust your fallen intellect when you have this perfect spirit to guide you?

Thanks so much for the question. :-)

How was L'Abri, by the way? I worked on Katherine Harris's first political campaign in Florida. She had gone to L'Abri as well, and told me a lot about it. Since then I've always wanted to go.

Disco,

I have some very good news for you. I believe the tide is turning. Oral Roberts University actually has some top professors. And Jack Hayford, who always brings the academic where ever he trods, has started a Charismatic seminary in CA. which now is applying for accredidation. And of course there is Regent University (Pat Robertson's endeavor) whose goal is top flight education in many disciplines. Regent College (Vancouver) has probbly one of the top intellectual Pentecostal thinkers, Gordon Fee, as a professor. Whether you agree with Roberts or Robertson, at least they have allowed the academics to run their universities.

The problem is this stuff needs to filter down to the C/P (Charismatic/Pentecostal) masses. However here is soemething interesting. Many C/P'ers today want their children to go to college. If more of their children go to some go either Christian, or even secular universities, I think the tide will begin to change in another 10 years.
What we desparately need is these more academic C/P'ers to become pastors and to start ministries so the Hinns and Third Wave revival people will be pushed out.

Diane R.
A neo-Pentecostal Presbyterian

Dear Discoshaman,

You asked which Patriarchate I belonged to. I'm a member of the Orthodox Church in America, which was granted autocephaly by the Moscow Patriarchate back in 1971, so we're self-governing. All of our services are in English, and we (mostly) follow the New Calendar. Most of our parishes seem made up of a hodge-podge of Russians, Ukrainians, Carpatho-Russians, Romanians, Serbs, and converts.

Although I've noticed a tendency among a lot of people to automatically swallow the Moscow line on Ukraine, I've been arguing with some success among my fellow Orthodox that Moscow really missed the boat on its stance regarding Ukraine. In fact, your blog has been very helpful in giving me ammo in this regard. Keep up the good work!

Tony Dyl

Discoshaman,

This is a good point.

I grew up in a Charismatic body of believers, which had a strong undercurrent of Biblical study and exegesis. I remember learning about the trichotomous theory of human nature, but I never saw it used as a carte blanche to follow the winds of emotion.

However, now that I've gone off to attend a college, I found that the local Assemblies of God church didn't have enough scripture underneath its teachings. So I ended up at a church that never mentions speaking in tongues or awesome spiritual revelations, but does talk a lot about the Bible.

I don't want to lose track of the good things that God has given me through my Charismatic background, but I also don't want to lose track of His Word, and the fact that all who call on Him are saved.

Discoshaman,

Thanks for the reply! I can see I have some more thinking to do on this issue.

How was L'Abri? That's a blog post of it's own if not a series. :)

The short answer is it was wonderful! I grew up questioning, thinking and trying to communicate. L'Abri was the first place I felt "at home" in this regard. It was the first time in my life I got tired of thinking by the end of a day! I learned more in the five months I was there than my entire 18 years before.

It was there I lost my faith trying to gain it and in losing it, I was able to make a real choice to follow Jesus!

L'Abri is certainly worth a visit! You really have to stay at least a month to get the full effect, though.

Disco, your post was spot on. No disagreement, but a few thoughts:

C/P's don't exist in a vacuum, their anti-intellectualism is not just a result of their anthropology, it's also a result of the broader culture in which they flourish.

Today there is a "perfect storm" of anti-intellectualism that influences them:
1. The existential worldview of popular culture.
2. The intellectual bankruptcy of most of academia (there's a good reason why most people think that many divinity schools and academics are useless, and it isn't just the di/trichotimy controversy... many of them ARE useless)
3. The time/energy consumed by entertainment in the world today. It's not just that C/P's don't read or think rigorously anymore... most people don't read or think rigorously anymore.

Planted in this field the philosophical seeds of charismatic/pentacostalism grow like weeds.

But all is not well in the Presbyterian/Reformed camp either. While there is a rich intellectual life in some colleges and seminaries, that comprises like 1% of the membership of Reformed/Presb churches. The average man or woman in the pew is a fundamentalist and a pietist.

My observations are based on my MDiv from a rigorous Calvinist seminary, 10+ years pastoring in Reformed churches around the US and another 5 years of consulting in broader evangelical churches around the US and Latin America.

Disco,
I find this really intriguing. After spending several years in an A of G, I can't say I ever recall being taught that man had a trichotomous nature. Sure we were taught about the indwelling of the holy spirit, but I always presumed this was the spirit of God, not another component of self.

In my own reading of the Bible I never thought to differentiate between the soul and spirit of man, it seemed elementary to me that the two terms were interchangeable.

You learn something new every day!

From my experience, we were taught and instructed to eschew intellectual pursuit in favor of spiritualism. Appreciation of the visual arts was deemed unimportant and best, sinful at worst. Performing arts were generally verboten, unless you were talking about hymns and CCM. Occasionally an evangelistic skit might be tolerated. Books that were not expressly Christian were frowned upon, books by reformed writers were strenuously rejected. Members bragged that they "did not read anything that wasn't written by a Christian."

Is it any wonder then that charlatans like Benny Hinn and company could so easily decieve and corrupt, when intellectual pursuits are discouraged and the life of the mind intentionally starved?

God help us!

kind regards,
Feeble

I have been in the Pent-Charis. movement for over 20 years. I consider our movement as one which struggles with anti-intellectualism by varying degrees and in a multiplicity of ways. I have chosen to stay in the movement(as long as they will have me) in order to attempt to help our situation. Most of my friends who have been discouraged by our lack of respect for and cultivation of the 'life of the mind' have opted to break ties with the movement. I still believe, by the grace of Christ, that I can help to make a difference. This is the reason that I resigned my 11-year pastorate to research and write a work on 'Anti-Intellectualism and the Pent.-Charis. Movement.' It will be published this year by a major publisher. Perhaps a Pentecostal or Charismatic has written a volume as such; however, in my research, I have never come across one. The work was originally 1000 pages, but has been trimmed down to 250+ for publication. This book points out what the Scriptures teach about the subject, how Anti-intell. has manifested itself in our midst, how the 19th-century was a precursor of our struggle, and eight primary ways we can turn the tide of this unbiblical mindset. Any thoughts?