janvier 23, 2005
Remembering the 32nd Anniversary of Roe v. Wade
I read this site for news about Ukraine, but I have to say that--not that you should care--you've lost me with that black ribbon. I'll be reflecting with relief on the life of my best friend who was not forced into motherhood at age 17 because her boyfriend was misdiagnosed as being infertile. I just donated a bunch of stuff to a 17-year-old mother to be today. I totally respect her choice to have a baby straight out of puberty, but I know that no amount of Christian charity or politics are going to offset what that mom and kid are in for. If you're going to bring up this issue on your site, maybe you could devote a little more discussion to it than just a facile black ribbon.
Posted by: Julia at janvier 23, 2005 07:19 AMJulia-
I'm glad you were interested in Ukraine, and glad I could supply info for you. But this isn't a site solely for Ukrainian politics, and it's written from an Evangelical perspective. I've certainly never been reticent about that fact.
"If you're going to bring up this issue on your site, maybe you could devote a little more discussion to it than just a facile black ribbon"
I've no doubt you'll be sure to berate your friends for wearing those "facile" breast cancer awareness ribbons too. . . :-)
Posted by: Discoshaman at janvier 23, 2005 07:30 AM..for the life of me I cant understand why it would be easier to kill a fetus than to give up a child for adoption..is it a out of sight,out of mine thing..
Posted by: Rob_NC at janvier 23, 2005 12:00 PMhuh..this is exactly why liberals are sinking into political abyss..no class folks..Disc..hopefully someday before he calls them home God will touch their hearts..
..beautiful kids,beautiful wife,beautiful family, you are most diffidently a blessed man..
We've been enriched by your informative posts on democracy and freedom in Ukraine.
We're also glad for your pro-life stand. Some of the comments show a lack of respect for you/your family. Perhaps it reflects the writers' lack of respect for any person, including the unborn.
Actually, I do think pink breast cancer ribbons are facile. I'm tired of this whole ribbon thing, but I guess you could've done a lot worse in the graphics department.
Whilst we're mourning the right to choose, let's say a prayer for all the girls around the world who are forced into pregnancies, some of them before they're even mature enough physically--much less psychologically--to bear children. Let's say a prayer for the men (and boys) who rape, seduce, or manipulate women into sex and then abandon them once evidence of their "sin" becomes obvious. Let's put on a black ribbon for all the children born to parents who can't care for them or love them properly. I'm asking this as a mother who was lucky enough to be able to wait until I was ready to have children.
Oh yeah, and go Yushchenko!
Posted by: Julia at janvier 23, 2005 07:57 PMAll-
I've deleted the posts from drk and Oleg -- it was the same person trolling. Again, thoughtful discourse from any point of view is welcome here. Stupidity will be met with force.
Posted by: Discoshaman at janvier 23, 2005 08:30 PM..Julia your pain is obvious,and shared,the problems you mention are all to real.We as a society need to respond to the issues you raise;I would fully support rounding up these dead beats and forcing them to provide for the children they fathered.As I see it a lot women are exploited into sex way to early by irresponsible men. With that said the ultimate burden still rests with the woman.We need to educate our young girls and ((boys)) early in sex and its ramifications.We must prosecute to fullest extinct of the law those who are irresponsible..yes that includes women also..until we grasp the issue of educating our young and holding the ones responsible for ones actions these issues will go on.Sex is all to prevalent in our society.You cant hide from it anywhere.Parents must be vigilant continuously in what their children are being bombarded with.Julia this is something we can demand our government give us .As a parent I`m sure when you set down with a child to watch a movie or listen to music, you like to know the content will be appropriate.When adults choose to watch something geared to them they`ll know its what they want.Today we spend way to much time explaining delicate issues,i.e. sex,in programs that could very well do with out.
Its about time we clean up our childrens enviroment.I dont promote censorship,but being responsble I do advocate.
I was taken aback when I saw the black ribbon and then read the caption. Disco - thank you for posting it.
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Interesting article in BBC online news today
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4199839.stm
" A 66-year-old Romanian woman thought to have become the world's oldest mother has revealed that she had two abortions in her early 20s.
Adriana Iliescu told a UK newspaper she regretted the terminations, which she said were then seen as an accepted form of birth control in Romania. " ...
" In that time I had two pregnancy terminations -it was the normal thing back then and the accepted form of contraception. If there is anything I regret then it is those terminations, not having a baby now. "
"Religion was not a big part of many people's lives and I had never had any religious education, I believed the party line that a foetus is only considered a life when it is older than three months."
Posted by: Hello at janvier 23, 2005 10:44 PMJulia,
I completely agree with your post. The ribbons (didn't the red AIDS ribbons get it all started?) are facile; they are getting old.
The good thing about ribbons, however, are that they are open to interpretation--"multivalent" as we say in my field. And, yes, the black ribbon might call to mind rape victims, girls who made the hardest choice of their young lives, men and boys who acted shamefully... along with the millions of lost lives of the unborn.
And, yes, all the people you mention certainly do need our prayers.
On the topic of abortion, the Kyiv Post has a story running that abortions are on the decline in Ukraine. (The article is in the non-free section, however, so I can't read it... hint, hint.)
Posted by: Joe St at janvier 23, 2005 10:50 PM" In that time I had two pregnancy terminations -it was the normal thing back then and the accepted form of contraception. If there is anything I regret then it is those terminations, not having a baby now. "
So now she's having a kid that she may not see grow to adulthood because she's so old? Great logic there.
I'm with Julia. Better to get it scraped out while it's a clump of cells — yes, folks, a clump of cells, not a "baaaayyyy-beeeee" — instead of hack its arms off or leave it in the SUV to fry because you're overwhelmed with taking care of your "little miracle from doG."
To quote a woman in a childfree group: "The 'gift' of motherhood? I'd be at the return counter so fast, it'd make your head spin." And so would I.
Posted by: Reginleif the Valkyrie at janvier 24, 2005 01:08 AMFL Grandma-
Good to see you! We had a lovely time with Nate when he was in town recently. I'm heading to Warsaw for some visa stuff in a few weeks and hope to see him then.
Rob-
Thanks for the kind words. . . :-)
Julia-
"Actually, I do think pink breast cancer ribbons are facile."
They are simple. But they serve a purpose. First, they raise the profile of an issue. I actually know something about breast cancer, which isn't something I'd likely have read up on if it wasn't constantly made an issue. Secondly, ribbons provoke discussion, as this thread proves. And thirdly, when we're talking about something controversial like abortion, it's a quiet way of saying, This is where I stand.
You mentioned a lot of "hard case" situations. I agree that they're awful. My belief is that Pro-Life political activism needs to be secondary to social activism. And the movement as a whole reflects this admirably. The vast majority of our resources, time and energy go into helping unwed mothers and their children. Only a fraction goes into the legal fight. We live out the pro-Life ethos.
Hello-
"I was taken aback when I saw the black ribbon and then read the caption. Disco - thank you for posting it."
Thanks! You're one of the most consistently friendly posters here, and I really appreciate you saying so. :-)
Posted by: Discoshaman at janvier 24, 2005 03:51 AMReginleif-
So now she's having a kid that she may not see grow to adulthood because she's so old? Great logic there.
You're right, much better to kill the kid. Because it's our place to say his life isn't worth living simply because his mother may die before his 18th birthday. Smart.
"To quote a woman in a childfree group: "The 'gift' of motherhood? I'd be at the return counter so fast, it'd make your head spin." And so would I."
Good! I certainly wouldn't wish you on a child. :-)
BTW, ever heard of the "Roe" affect? People like you abort in much higher numbers and have much, much fewer overall children. Meanwhile, Evangelicals and observant Catholics have lots of kids. Which is a big reason why Gens X and Y are more pro-Life than the Boomers, and why overall support for abortion on demand continues to plummet.
Posted by: Discoshaman at janvier 24, 2005 04:03 AMReginleif-
" Better to get it scraped out while it's a clump of cells — yes, folks, a clump of cells, not a "baaaayyyy-beeeee" —"
I'm curious, was this ignorance, or obfuscation?
8 weeks is the average gestation for an aborted baby. At this point the baby has:
- a heartbeat- functional kidneys, stomach and liver
- fingerprints
- measurable brain waves and a cerebrum divided into hemispheres
- muscles and nerves which work together and respond to stimuli
This "lump" has more going for it than some of my old high school classmates.
"instead of hack its arms off or leave it in the SUV to fry because you're overwhelmed with taking care of your "little miracle from doG."
Leaving aside the religion-baiting, which is beneath contempt, I'll respond to your anecdotal evidence about unwanted children and abuse.
The best research says that abused children aren't unwanted children, but hyper-wanted. Mothers of abused children began wearing maternity clothes much earlier than average, and expressed much higher expectations about their relationship with their child. Often these are psychologically frail people who were looking for the baby to fulfill a role that he or she simply cannot.
I'd also point out that unplanned or inconvenient doesn't equate to unwanted -- a cheap sleight-of-hand the pro-abortion side always wants to attempt.
Posted by: Discoshaman at janvier 24, 2005 04:12 AMJulia-
I posted about this on the main blog, but I wanted to respond briefly here.
Our differences are likely going to come down to differing presuppositions. I believe that the unborn child is a human being deserving of all the protections that we afford anyone. Because of this, I see abortion as homicide. Please note that I didn't say murder. But it IS the taking of a human life.
And so when you and I are faced with the same problem -- moms who are pregnant in difficult circumstances, our available responses are going to be different.
If the fetus isn't actually yet human, then the logical thing would seem to be to abort in many cases. But if the fetus is a person, then it's monstrous to imagine that killing one person is the proper solution to the problems of another.
So what seems logical to you seems monstrous to me. You likely see it as equally monstrous that I think a woman should be forced to carry a non-person to term. I accept that.
Given our differing pre-suppositions, we're not likely to agree on this. The next best thing is if we can agree to disagree, and go on chatting amiably about other topics. I personally try to look past other people's politics and focus on them as people.
Posted by: Discoshaman at janvier 24, 2005 04:24 AMI totally agree to disagree. I grew up in Texas and know there's not much middle ground on this issue. You just happened to bring it up on a day when I donated a bunch of baby stuff to a 17-year-old pregnant girl, which got me thinking about how utterly ruined my friend's life would have been if she'd had a baby when we were 17 (and no, my friend is not a euphemism for "me.") The fact that I had to get her to the clinic through a screaming mob of fundamentalists didn't help endear us to your co-religionists either. But I know how complex this issue is. I don't like abortion at all but I know that women (with the support of men too) will seek it out no matter how restricted or dangerous it is. That's why it should be safe, legal, and above all RARE. That's the last I have to say on the topic.
Good luck to Yu tomorrow v Moskve. Neeka's reporting that Ya may have gotten there first...
Posted by: Julia at janvier 24, 2005 04:47 AMJoe St-
I have the print edition of the Post. I'll put the highlights of the article here in the comments section. . . :)
Posted by: Discoshaman at janvier 24, 2005 05:36 AMIn answer to Reginlief and his comment "So now she's having a kid that she may not see grow to adulthood because she's so old?" - many children's mothers NEVER see their children grow to adulthood - no matter what age the mothers are when they concieve [(example on a large scale) read about the thousands of children left orphaned because of the Tsunami (example on a smaller scale) my friend's daughter - aged six at the time her mother (aged 41) passed away from breast cancer].
I applaud Disco for standing up for his beliefs. And for those who do not believe that it is 'topical' - Ukraine is a country which has been experienced a negative population decline - from 50 mil to 48 mil (immigration, abortion, deaths,...), where abortion had been the main form of birth control and a country that is in the middle of a huge AIDS crisis because of unprotected sex. In Soviet times women had an average of three abortions in her child-bearing years. "A study of mid-1990s data by a group of health researchers showed Russia's abortion rate was the fourth-highest of 57 countries, after only Vietnam, Cuba and Romania." http://www.loper.org/~george/repchoice/2003/Feb/99.html
I mentioned the Roe Effect earlier. Here's a new poll that shows how much progress Pro-Life beliefs have made in recent years. Far from the days when a majority could be said to favor abortion, a majority now oppose it. According to this LA Times poll:
Aggregate for "abortion should always be legal" or "usually legal" -- 43%
Aggregate for "abortion should always be illegal" or "illegal except for rape, incest and life of the mother" -- 53%
The question was VERY well worded, with none of the ambiguity of many abortion polls. And the results were clear -- America is becoming increasingly pro-Life.
Posted by: Discoshaman at janvier 25, 2005 05:25 AM