The prison abuses in Iraq will (rightly) lead to a good deal of introspection and hopefully, reform. Unfortunately, it'll probably also lead to an equally destructive overreaction. Much like reaction to some perceived excesses by our Intel services in the 70's shackled the agencies in ways from which they still haven't recovered.
While it's unpleasant to face, the fact is that we live in a dangerous world. It's dangerous in large part because of dangerous people who are difficult to find. They are protected by slightly less dangerous people who are often reluctant to share their location with people like us. This is where a process known as 'interrogation' comes in.
Interrogation, by its nature, entails things like humiliation, stress, discomfort, bad words, and other things not in accordance with Hoyle's Rules of War and General Pleasantries. That's life in the big, scary world.
That said, it needs to be done by professionals. It needs to be done in a controlled environment, and with definite goals and boundaries. In other words, not by Beetle Bailey of the Arkansas Nat'l Guard and his concubine, PVT Lynndie England.
My concern is that in rightly responding to one problem, we'll create more unintended ones. One of the great factors in 9/11 was a lack of Intel in general, and hampering restrictions on our intelligence gatherers. My hope is that we aren't poised to compound this problem.
Posted by Discoshaman at mai 23, 2004 12:53 AM | TrackBack
John,
I know you're trying to strike a balance between necessary means to extract information from unwilling prisoners and utterly abominable torture practices, but what has happened in this instance is not just the action of a few trailer-trash idiot soldiers. These techniques were authorized from top brass, as is becoming increasingly apparent as more comes to light. Professionals? Check.
Posted by: Jon Luker at mai 23, 2004 09:31 AMJon-
I'm going to wait to buy into that. Sy Hersh has about zero credibility with me for objective reporting.
Posted by: Discoshaman at mai 23, 2004 09:53 AMCould you shed a little light on Sy Hersh? Since I view journalism as a job, not a Calling, I'm really quite ignorant of most of the pantheon that features on the trading cards collected by my j-school colleagues. The sole detail of his biography I know is that he broke the My Lai story.
FYI, in my (slightly) professional opinion, the most recent New Yorker piece smelled like it was based on authorized leaks from the CIA as part of its decades-old urination contest with military intelligence - which of course doesn't mean it's entirely untrue.
But that aside, I do find it hard to believe that it's a case of just a few redneck yahoos. Several things we all know - including the presence of a lot more than seven soldiers in the pictures, the fact that photos were taken at all, the expressions of glee on the soldiers' faces, the fact that it seemed to start after Miller arrived to "Gitmo-ize" the prison, the transfer of suthority from the MPs to military intelligence, the lack of response to the Red Cross reports, and of course today's Washington Post story about Sanchez - suggest that it was ordered from above.
But (gratuitous cheap shot alert!) I must say it's nice to see such a fervent supporter of the war finally thinking about unintended consequences.
Posted by: The Liberal Media at mai 23, 2004 10:47 PMDisco-
And why would that be (Seymour Hersh having zero credibility)? When I saw him interviewed (as part of a panel of guests, before this article was published) on Charlie Rose he seemed quite cautious in his assessment of the war, about whether or not we could call it a failure yet, etc.
Regarding your assessment of the torture: I find it to be quite in line with W's speech today - when Saddam did it, it was "torture," when we do it, it's "disgraceful conduct." And the same classic methods of torture were popping up at prisons all over Iraq, implemented by bad apples from Hicksville, WV.
But for one moment, hold the image of those naked men in pyramids, and lighten their skin. Now they're American soldiers, captured by the enemy - do you still feel this comes under the heading of "interrogation"? Remember that those inconvenient Geneva Conventions are there to protect our guys when they are captured. Would you find this an acceptable way to treat our soldiers, let alone our innocent civilians caught in a roundup?
C'mon, do you really think that Rumsfeld is somehow above ordering the kid gloves be taken off for people who he is sure know where all those WMD are? You read the articles I sent you, did you not? Did you follow the link to the memo from the DOJ? They specifically said [paraphrase], "We are going to commit war crimes, let's draft this document to say we can't be held repsonsible." How nice. Perhaps I can do this next time I want to go, oh I don't know, drunk driving. I'll simply prepare a document beforehand saying I'm not responsible for people I run over.
It's funny I thought true leadership took responsibility for those under their command. I heard Rumsfeld say it, but I'm not seeing it. Maybe I'm simply waiting in vain for Jean-Luc Picard to emerge from my country's leadership. Sigh.
Autmom and Lib-
First, part of the problem I have isn't with Hersh personally, but with how the media has handled his article. They're treating his words as if he's definitively and convincingly accused Rumsfeld when in fact he says the following in his article:
"Rumsfeld may not be personally culpable." AND "The former intelligence official made it clear that he was not alleging that Rumsfeld or Gen. [Richard] Myers knew that atrocities were committed."
As for Hersh himself, he has credibility problems. First, back in Afghanistan, in 2001, he reported a well performed strike against the Taliban as a "near-complete disaster" and stated that 16 AC-130 gunships had taken part. This would have been hard, as there are only 21 on the entire planet.
Next, I have trouble giving a lot of credit to an article that has 25 quotes from 'former government officials' and only five from current officials anywhere in government. And all, except for one public official, are anonymous.
This is a guy who was painting a bleak picture of our campaign in Afghanistan, implying we might lose, the month before the Taliban fell.
A week and a half before Saddam fell in one of the most one-sided major campaigns in history, Hersh was attacking the military capabilities of our troops and blaming Rumsfeld personally.
This is also the guy who wrote the scandal-mongering 'Dark Side of Camelot' which credible historians have panned. As one historian said, Hersh squandered his credibility for money.
There's a good article here about some other difficulties he's had with journalistic standards.
I should temper my original statement though, which is overly categorical. A better way would be to say that he has little credibility with me, because of his record, and that it'll take more than a series of anonymous quotes to make me buy what he says. . . More later on interrogation and the like.
Your pal,
Disco
Disco,
While I certainly agree with the main thrust of your post the swipe at the Arkansas National Guard was gratuitous at best. Having served as a regular Army Senior NCO advisor to an ARNG unit I can state categorically that its men and women are highly-motivated, well-trained, and well-disciplined. I would have had no reservations or apprehension had I ever been required to deploy with them.
Further, the 39th Infantry Brigade is involved in combat operations in the Baghdad area and has no connection whatsoever with units manning the Abu Ghraib prison.
Posted by: Al Superczynski at mai 26, 2004 03:31 AMAl-
Thanks for weighing in. I served with both the ARNG and the regular Army, and I have lots of respect for the professionalism of the modern ARNG. The days of weekend drill consisting of 6-packs and camping are long gone.
Nevertheless, they aren't the regular Army. And Reservists shouldn't have been 'softening up' anyone for interrogation.
It was more a gratuitous swipe at Arkansas, anyway. ;)
Posted by: Discoshaman at mai 26, 2004 04:02 AMUm, I liked Arkansas so much I decided to stay here after I retired. Maybe I didn't make it clear that by 'ARNG' I meant the Arkansas National Guard specifically, not the Army National Guard in general ... ;)
As far as Reservists 'softening up' prisoners, no unit, Active, Guard, or Reserve assigned as prison guards should be doing that. They should only be acting as guards, no more and no less.
Posted by: Al Superczynski at mai 26, 2004 09:01 AMThanks for the background on Hersh. With anonymous quotes, you really need to look closely at the way they're attributed, and you have to trust the journalist in question...and you give plenty of good reasons for reserving judgment.
As I said in my post, though, there's plenty of solid evidence that things went higher than a couple of hayseeds, even if the evidence that it went all the way to the top isn't (yet) convincing. Anxious for your thoughts on that.
BTW, have you read Ben's reflections on Abu Ghraib over at mysteriousfaith.com?
Off-topic: Still working on tortilla delivery. Unfortunately my friend's flight leaves pretty early so if I want to get them as fresh as possible I'll have to ask the guys to open up the restaurant a litle early. May be possible though.
Posted by: The Liberal Media at mai 26, 2004 06:48 PMHere I am with my articles again...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A55703-2004May25.html?referrer=email
This came to mind after your having said you aren't convined how high it goes. See excerpt below:
In a Feb. 11 written statement accompanying the transcript, Pappas shifted the responsibility elsewhere. He said "policies and procedures established by the [Abu Ghraib] Joint Interrogation and Debriefing Center relative to detainee operations were enacted as a specific result of a visit" by Miller, who in turn has acknowledged being dispatched to Baghdad by Undersecretary of Defense Stephen A. Cambone, after a conversation with Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld.
Autmom and Liberal Media-
It's 2 am and I have another post to write up still. I really will post some further thoughts about this situation (and its extent) soonish. I want to educate myself further on the subject, and also wait to see more information revealed/confirmed. I've no doubt you two will help me not forget to do so. ;)
Posted by: Discoshaman at mai 28, 2004 02:31 AM