Paul writes about believers running the race of faith, and pressing forward toward the prize. Watching a couple of Mormon missionaries from my balcony today, I was reminded that most of humanity is running an entirely different race -- trying to work their way to Heaven on their own merit. As the Mormons tried to accost various passers-by and help speed them to Hell, I was reminded of a snatch of song from They Might Be Giants:
We came so close to Heaven;
Saint Peter gave us medals;
Declaring us the nicest of the damned...
It's a melancholy truth that those running the race of good works have only this empty prize to claim at the end.
Posted by Discoshaman at octobre 3, 2003 12:55 AM | TrackBack
We oftentimes prefer poisonous poetry over life-giving platitudes.
Posted by: Aaron Shafovaloff at octobre 3, 2003 08:01 PMFunny that's not what I see in the Mormon missionaries. When I see them bicycling down the street in long dark pants and ties when it's 120 degrees outside I see devotion. More devotion than I see from most Christians. Remember, faith without works is dead.
Posted by: Catherine at octobre 9, 2003 07:55 PMCatherine-
Then you don't know enough Christians. :)
Devotion is nothing in itself. Devotion is only good and noble when it is affixed to something good and noble.
Suicide bombers are devoted. Felix Derzhinsky was devoted. Mao was devoted. Satan himself is devoted to a cause -- the destruction of the church and the glorification of himself.
One of his chief vehicles for realizing this devotion is false religion. The Bible warns us of the wolves and false teachers who were to come preaching a false gospel.
Mormons are some of the most active of these. They preach a Christ who is not the Christ of the Bible, a Gospel which is not the Gospel of the Bible, and a God who is not the God of the Bible. And in place of these they substitute a facile and frankly silly facsimile of the true faith.
The verses about millstones and false teachers are not rhetorical. They truly are leading others to Hell, and unless they repent there is a fearsome Judge awaiting them.
Posted by: Discoshaman at octobre 9, 2003 10:43 PMIn response to this :
"They preach a Christ who is not the Christ of the Bible, a Gospel which is not the Gospel of the Bible, and a God who is not the God of the Bible. And in place of these they substitute a facile and frankly silly facsimile of the true faith."
I say, "Then you don't know enough Mormons" :)
Not to be argumentative, really. But when I have a baby, or am so ill that I'm bedridden, it is not my fellow Christians who help by coming over, bringing dinner, etc, etc. It is my Mormon friends. I have never seen fellow Christians spending their spare time knitting warm hats and mittens for orphans in Russia as was an LDS Relief Society project a couple years back. I also have never seen my fellow Christians assembling therapy tools for the local Autism Research Center in their spare time, enlisting the help of neighbors so they could accomplish more. Yes, another Relief Society project. As the mother of a child with autism this one really touched me. Every so often our church sends a group to Mexico or Romania or some impoverished area to build a church and that's great. But it's a handful of people doing something once a year. Mormons make giving to others a way of life. Which seems more Christlike to you, a 3 week summer mission, or a way of life?
I've been in their church and I understand how one who is accustomed to Christian church practices could look at their prayers, their style of worship, etc and say it looks like a cheap copy of Christian church, with minor adjustments. Even the idea of a temple, let alone multiple temples, seems a throw-back to before the crucifixion. But when you look at the people and their lives... isn't that where the proof lies? After all, no one ever converted to a religion because of the format of a worship service, or a style of dress, but because people demonstrated they had access to something good, something the convert wanted. And I see more 1st-century-church-like love for others among Latter Day Saints than among the Christians with whom I grew up, or know today.
And when I see the missionaries, I see that love for others. For pity's sake, I've had missionaries at my door asking only for a glass of water who offered to help me with my brood of half-dressed, running wild rugrats (it was a bad day, I must've looked a sight!) Of course, I didn't let them, but the idea that they would offer...
What about a crust of bread being given in the name of Christ... and no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except by the power of the Holy Spirit? I cannot see people who consciously choose to emulate Christ with their lives and resources being turned away at the pearly gates.
So tell me, what is different about their Christ, their Gospel, or their God? Other than the aforementioned love for others and service to others (which seems like quite a nice difference, if you ask me).
**Side note: you know what's silly? A friend directed me to you regarding your Ezzo thread with which I wholeheartedly agree (the man and his "philosophy" are poison) and I never thought to write and tell you that...
Posted by: Catherine at octobre 10, 2003 09:48 PMCatherine-
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. :)
This is not about feelings, personalities, or how nice people are. If being friendly or community-service-oriented was the definition of Christianity, there would be plenty of atheists and Muslims who would be considered Christians.
God revealed Himself to us in his Word. It is our standard both for truth, and for our faith.
The Bible teaches that God is a Trinity, that is has eternally existed, and that He is infinite in a way that mankind will never be. Mormonism teaches that God is simply a man who became divine, that He is not trinitarian in nature, and that we may become Gods.
The Bible teaches that Christ is God Himself in human form. That He is one with the Father and the Spirit. Mormonism says that He is not God. So when they say they believe in Jesus, the devil truly is in the details.
This is a non-negotiable of the Christian faith. All the Romanian orphans and bake sales in the world won't change the fact that Mormons worship a different God and preach a different Gospel.
You're free to believe what you want. I certainly won't struggle to hold you back. People believe what they want to, and argumentation has little impact in most situations. Fifteen minutes of research will verify what I've said to you, if you choose to look into it rather than just looking at the surface similarities of our two religions.
As for your contention that Christians don't do good works, I'd invite you to Ukraine sometime. I can introduce you to a multitude of people giving their lives to children's medical clinics, street children ministries, the elimination of child exploitation, and many other ministries.
Posted by: Discoshaman at octobre 10, 2003 10:37 PM"**Side note: you know what's silly? A friend directed me to you regarding your Ezzo thread with which I wholeheartedly agree (the man and his "philosophy" are poison) and I never thought to write and tell you that..."
I'm so glad to hear that! And even happier that you've chosen to stay. It seems that I've hit a nerve with this post. The truth about Le Sabot is that if you haven't been offended at least once, you aren't reading carefully enough. Hope to see you often. :-)
Posted by: Discoshaman at octobre 10, 2003 10:39 PMHi, Catherine!
An LDS apologist has stated, "Everything Latter-day Saints teach about God is in agreement with the rest of the Christian world, with the exception of His nature."
To me that sums it up. While LDS may follow a "do unto others" way of life and adhere to a Bible referenced moral code--when they reject God's nature, they are rejecting God and His Gospel.
Posted by: The Duchess at octobre 10, 2003 11:31 PMWell, both of you have given me a couple things to converse with my Mormon friends about, such as the nature of God and the nature of man. Both are pretty crucial to understanding each other. I have heard in LDS church service references to us "being co-redeemers with Christ" which would seem to put man on a divine level. But could this not be said of any Christian who brings the Good News to someone who needs it? Christ did the deed but we brought the message of the work of salvation? Further, watching some of the semi-annual LDS conference as it was televised a week or so ago, there was reference to the "fact" that man was with God in the beginning when the world was created... which would seem to conflict with one of the more plain and obvious portions of Scripture which clearly states that man was created by God on the 6th day, not looking over his shoulder as he did it all, and not having existed in eternity past.
And I've done a wee bit of research over the past few years, going straight to the source (The Book of Mormon) to find whether or not there is truth in it. What I find one day convinces me they are not for real, yet the next day entices me for reasons I can't explain. One of the most confounding verses is in 2Nephi and says, "Adam fell that men might be, and men are that they might have joy." And I could go on for hours about what's wrong with it. Adam didn't need to fall in order for procreation to occur (though the idea of sex being a sin, even between two married people, was common in Joseph Smith's day), and I believe it is stated in the Bible that men exist to bring glory to the Father, not for their own gratification (which sounds disturbingly like, "Do what thou wilt," supposedly a pronunciation from the Satanic Bible, though I've honestly never looked there to find it). That's my "nutshell" version of what's wrong with it. But yet to hear a Mormon comment on this verse, they make it sound so... decent. That Adam didn't really sin, he "transgressed," which they interpret as going against God's advice, which we are free to do because of free will. And if he hadn't, then the human race couldn't have happened, which would've been in violation of God's "commandment" to procreate. (So apparently God set us up?) But then how could we experience joy with having experienced sorrow? And this point makes sense. Food tastes better after having been hungry, etc.
Still in all this, I prefer to ask Mormon friends about what I hear Mormons believe because it is easy for one group of people to totally desecrate another's point of view WITHOUT their being truth to it. I've seen The Godmakers, read Out of Mormonism, read a little about the Lighthouse Ministry. But as one of my Mormon friends pointed out, if you want to know what a Baptist believes, ask a Baptist. If you want to know what a Mormon believes, doesn't it make more sense to ask a Mormon, than a Baptist? Especially when you consider how one valid Christian denomination will attempt to villify another completely valid Christian denomination, I wonder how much of the info given me about the LDS church as a Christian kid is valid... then I read some more BOM and find more mistakes... then I consider the differences in lifestyle I see around me... with the end result being I don't trust my own judgement anymore.
But I will take issue on the Trinity issue. I believe in the Trinity, but you'll not find the word anywhere in the Bible. I'm pretty sure the whole concept of the Trinity was first stated in the 1400's or 1500's.
And I certainly did not mean to imply that there aren't committed Christians all over the globe living out the Great Commission and the Great Commandment. Perhaps it's because they are scattered all over the globe that I don't see them, they aren't here in my backyard, like so many Mormons :).
Oh, and don't downplay the importance of feelings/emotions. Without them, no man would find a woman willing to pick up his dirty socks for the rest of his life. :)
Posted by: Catherine at octobre 14, 2003 08:36 AMCatherine-
Thanks so much for getting back with me. I'm enjoying discussing this with you.
"I'm pretty sure the whole concept of the Trinity was first stated in the 1400's or 1500's."
Absolutely not. This couldn't be less true. The creeds of Christianity have the Trinity as their focus in fact -- teaching the divinity of both Christ and the Holy Spirit. They were written because heretical sects like Arianism sprang up denying the Trinity and the divinity of Christ.
The Trinity is something accepted by ALL the branches of Christianity -- Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox. It was one of the key measures used by the early church to differentiate the true church from heretical sects like the Arians. It isn't remotely a product of the Renaissance or Reformation, but goes back to the very earliest of Christianity, and to the very core of whom God has revealed Himself to be. If a person is worshipping a god who was formerly a man, and a non-trinitarian god to boot, then he isn't worshipping the God of the Bible. Nor is he worshipping the same God that I do.
Setting aside the word Trinity a moment, let's park on the divinity of Christ. Is this a "live and let live" issue for you? A "we're all friends here" sort of thing? Is the divinity or non-divinity of your personal Lord and Savior something that you can overlook when deciding if a group is orthodox or not?
God Himself is just a highly evolved man in their world. Here's a quote from the King Follett Discourse, which LDS accept as just as inspired as the Book of Mormon:
" b. I will go back to the beginning before the world was, to show what kind of being God is. What sort of a being was God in the beginning?
a. [I will tell you,so*] Open your ears [and eyes*] and hear, all ye ends of the earth, for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible,and to tell you the designs of God in relation to the human race, [the relation the human family sustains with God,*] and why He interferes with the affairs of man.
[First*] God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man,and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit [sphere*], and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make himself visible, ญญ"
Here's the full text of Joseph Smith's speech if you're interested in the larger context. It's important to me that you know I'm not selectively quoting it.
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3500/kfd2.html
Mormons teach that we will become Gods and have our own planets. They are POLYTHEISTIC, which you can see by reading the Discourse in paragraph D:
" Thus the Head God brought forth the [Head*] Gods in the grand [head*] council. I will transpose and simplify it in the English language. Oh, ye lawyers, ye doctors, and ye priests, who have persecuted me, I want to let you know that the Holy Ghost knows something as well as you do.The Head [One of the*] God[s*] called together the Gods [and the grand councilors*] and sat in grand council to bring forth the world.?
It may be that polytheism doesn't offend your definition of Christianity also. But if the divinity of Christ, the Trinity, and the monotheistic nature of God don't bother you, I'm interested to know what DOES determine whether or not a group is authentically Christian? And this question is asked honestly.
"Oh, and don't downplay the importance of feelings/emotions."
On a personal level I don't. I have several emotions myself, sometimes even before my second cup of coffee. :) But when it comes to the nature and truth of God, He has chosen to reveal Himself in His WORD. He could have used emotions or smells or anything He chose. But He chose words. And this Word is our standard for truth, not our emotions.
"If you want to know what a Mormon believes, doesn't it make more sense to ask a Mormon, than a Baptist?"
There is a place for talking to Mormons about what they believe. But there has been a very strong shift in Mormon approaches in recent decades, from being proudly separatistic to trying a new spin of being "just another church." So what you get, in my experience, is a very highly refined spin that's pitched to hit Evangelical ears in a gentle way and which downplays the very real differences between our beliefs.
In general I couldn't disagree with your statement more strongly. You are a member of the Church of Jesus Christ. God has given you pastors, and elders, and mature women of faith. You are a member of His Body. And you are hopefully a member of a local expression of this Body. THOSE are the people to seek out for spiritual insight, first and foremost. And it may be that you really do have some special insight into Mormonism that every other Christian church on the planet doesn't. That everyone has been wrong for almost two centuries in denouncing Mormon teachings as heretical. But it seems like a stretch to me. There have been hundreds of new denominations that have sprung up since 1820 which are perfectly accepted as Christian and solid. Mormons never have been. Maybe there's a reason for that?
Other than Christians you respect, I would suggest going to the Mormon teachings themselves. And remember always that a "living prophet is greater than a dead one" as they say. So what you read in the BoM isn't the whole story, but rather new evolutions are added every year by the President and prophets.
Another great resource is Christians who come from a Mormon background. They?ve been on both sides of the divide, and have seen it for themselves. Obviously the fact that they're ex- may color their perspective, but it also helps round out yours.
In closing, Mormons deny many of the essentials of the faith. And again, you may have more wisdom than the Evangelical, Orthodox and Catholic churches which have unanimously denounced it as a heretical cult. But the fact that Christ's church speaks with a united voice on this should at least make you pause, if you belong to His church.
I've spoken very directly to you, but none of it is meant in a harsh or judging way. Mormons blaspheme the name of Christ by what they say about Him, and there can be no compromise in this. But in discussing this I don't feel aggressive toward you in any way.
Posted by: Discoshaman at octobre 14, 2003 09:09 PMWith love comes strange currencies.
Posted by: Hecker Raquel at mars 18, 2004 08:56 AM